Many thanks citfta, I already know this, I have asked something different about AC but many people only think in "modern" days usage. Analysing devices that have worked a bit different.

So, my specific questions about AC generated by old alternators as they producing 2 phases AC without neutral/return line. What is alternating there ? Direction or potential ?
If it is direction, means "negative" is some kind of standing wave or reflected wave ? If it is potential, must be a reference introduced somewhere to allow "negative" and "positive".

Now, if 2 or more phases are generated by an alternator and no neutral line or common ground is provided from method of connections can we use 2/4 phases AC as a potential difference for lightning or heat or even to power a motor ?


So, if I connect and extension cable 2x0.5 sqmm straight to the socket (power grid) 1500 m long and no load or short on the other end, that AC still alternate at 50/60 Hz all along the cable and travel to the end trough the resistance, yet no consumption is seen by the meter (as long as no load or short).

Now, if I take only "hot" wire and wrap it on a ferro or para magnetic metal I will get an electromagnet if the "hot" wire is wound side by side (bifilar) with another wire (both hot and second wire left unterminated at opposite ends) ? So, the second wire without any galvanic connection with hot wire will be subject of induction ? provided that neutral line from the socket (or generator) will make a common ground for the second wire.

All this based only on old machineries able to generate currents that alternate.

Would be easier to obtain an isolation transformer using only 2 phases AC without neutral and/or ground line ?

Your answer may bring some light for someone who need it.

Quote from: Classic on Nov 15, 2024, 04:30 PMMany thanks citfta, I already know this, I have asked something different about AC but many people only think in "modern" days usage. Analysing devices that have worked a bit different.

So, my specific questions about AC generated by old alternators as they producing 2 phases AC without neutral/return line. What is alternating there ? Direction or potential ?

If the potentiial or voltage changes then the direction of current will also change.

If it is direction, means "negative" is some kind of standing wave or reflected wave ? If it is potential, must be a reference introduced somewhere to allow "negative" and "positive".

The reference is usually between one of the wires and the other wire.

Now, if 2 or more phases are generated by an alternator and no neutral line or common ground is provided from method of connections can we use 2/4 phases AC as a potential difference for lightning or heat or even to power a motor ?

2 or more phases can be used to power lights or heat without a neutral.  The common ground as I stated before is used to keep the system from "floating" to a high voltage level above ground which would be dangerous for anyone working with the equipment.  2 phases are usually 180 degrees apart which is not suitable for powering a motor.  The reasons for that are too involved for this discussion.

So, if I connect and extension cable 2x0.5 sqmm straight to the socket (power grid) 1500 m long and no load or short on the other end, that AC still alternate at 50/60 Hz all along the cable and travel to the end trough the resistance, yet no consumption is seen by the meter (as long as no load or short).

Now, if I take only "hot" wire and wrap it on a ferro or para magnetic metal I will get an electromagnet if the "hot" wire is wound side by side (bifilar) with another wire (both hot and second wire left unterminated at opposite ends) ? So, the second wire without any galvanic connection with hot wire will be subject of induction ? provided that neutral line from the socket (or generator) will make a common ground for the second wire.

The formula for induction is Ampere/Turns.  In other words if there is no current flowing through the wires then normally there would be no induction into the ferro material.  Now if the wires are long enough and wrapped tight enough together then there MAY be enough capacitance between the wires to allow some current to flow in the second wire

All this based only on old machineries able to generate currents that alternate.

Do you have any links to a particular old machine you are referring to?

Would be easier to obtain an isolation transformer using only 2 phases AC without neutral and/or ground line ?

I have not seen any 2 phase power transformers.  The only 2 phase transformers I have seen are used in radios for signal processing.

Your answer may bring some light for someone who need it.

I hope this helps some.
Carroll

Many thanks for answer, it helped a lot, I really appreciate. As I said, I am not an electric or electronic engineer, never been given any formal training or education and I only do what if feels right. But it is really hard to explain what I see and how is working to someone skilled in the art of modern electricity generation/usage.

All I know, a current can be induced in working circuit without depleting supplying circuit.
And indeed it is very intriguing to see capacitive coupling as you describe as being possible. Anyway, there are two components: induction and capacitance which can work together or separate like acceleration and mass.

And as you observed, the potential can rise amazing high or dangerous and this is one of the components needed for power generation. I have all time a feeling that in these modern days we are using wrong electric power and wrong method to obtain it are employed just against the nature.

2 phase transformer is patent 382282 of Tesla 😉 90 degree difference and a rotating magnetic field with infinite poles. Instead of using solenoids at 90 degrees on circumference as rakarsky showed, leave solenoids on the toroid and it will be a magnet that rotate at speed of driven generator or use siggen to increase the speed of moving magnet.

But there is something more interesting related to Tesla works: what would happen if a transceiver will get 100 W instead of 100 mW ? What would happen to its battery ? Of course would be just a short burst. Can I pretend that I have rigged the device(s) with some "other" substances and somehow I managed to hide the volume of this extra added ? 

The only problem is when I have a network with many devices tuned and connected and I can't differentiate only one devices but all connected will get the burst ... if I am an evil and do not care for consequences I can do it for a very specific aim and I don't care how much energy I need to spend for this specific action, provided I am able and have the mean to provide a short burst of power.

Just think about it. What would happen if my mobile power bank (without grounding !) is not able to manage a high inrush burst of current ?

Of course this is just my wild imagination and such technology is impossible in real world.

On the other hand, when we limit the potential rise in 2 phases AC we actually limit the power we get and the higher the frequency the higher potential will rise, so, careful considerations are neccessary and adjusting the common ground is a must.

One thing I know: inductance means voltage leading and capacitance means current leading, now its up to us which one we increase using an efficient method low resistance or high resistance and how to balance the output for what we need.

Method 1 blocking oscillator without blocking elements 🤣 - current amplification
Method 2 Voltage amplification with increased frequency.
Or any combination according to our needs.

Also, I need to say that there is not any negative ! The energy is always more or less positive. When we use polarity we just set a reference point. In a power source "the negative" have less potential but high quantity and "positive" the opposite.

No blocking elements for blocking oscillator: https://youtu.be/cj0WbFqvYWs?si=SMDmYx-_OqZOvjiR