Overunity Machines

I did not want to interrupt the discussion going on in Floodrod's thread about a solid state generator so I will post this here since UFO wanted my experience in relation to generators and alternators.

The first principle we need to understand is that the speed of the changing field with a fixed input to that field determines the voltage that will be induced into the secondary circuit.  If we maintain a given speed and input voltage the output voltage will be stable.  

The second principle we need to understand is that adding a load on the output of a generator will increase the torque needed to keep the speed up.  On a normal home gasoline or diesel powered generator the governor is all that is needed to maintain a stable output voltage.  As long as the speed is stable the output voltage will also be stable even under various load conditions until we load the generator to the point it can't keep the speed up.

Now all that applies to generators and alternators that have a governing mechanism to keep the speed stable.

 But what if we don't have a stable speed?  Then we have to do something different.  In the old days cars actually had generators on them.  And in order to keep the output stable they had voltage regulators that adjusted the field current to keep the output stable under changing speed or load conditions.

In the 1960s cars started being equiped with alternators.  The basic design of an alternator is more efficient than the older generators.  But again because the input speed keeps changing a regulator is required to keep the output voltage stable.

So the simple rule is current requires torque and voltage requires speed.

I hope this helps.

Quote from: citfta on Jul 23, 2024, 07:51 PMI did not want to interrupt the discussion going on in Floodrod's thread about a solid state generator so I will post this here since UFO wanted my experience in relation to generators and alternators.

Thanks much Citfta!

I really appreciate your input!

Quote from: citfta on Jul 23, 2024, 07:51 PMThe first principle we need to understand is that the speed of the changing field with a fixed input to that field determines the voltage that will be induced into the secondary circuit.  If we maintain a given speed and input voltage the output voltage will be stable.

Exactly, that is the way I understand it. 

Quote from: citfta on Jul 23, 2024, 07:51 PMThe second principle we need to understand is that adding a load on the output of a generator will increase the torque needed to keep the speed up. [...]

So the simple rule is current requires torque and voltage requires speed.

I hope this helps.

Yes, indeed it helped.

Thanks Citfta!

Regards

Ufopolitics

@citfta

Ok, since we are here on the Generator Principles of Operation Topic that you've opened...I have some points I would like to share as to get your opinion...

Let's go to the simplest rotary generator, a single phase, brushed type, two pole exciter rotor

As you and I, as many here know perfectly well the way it works, I would go over it briefly, basically about the way it's Exciter System works.

Basically, on the Exciter or Inductor System we have:

1-Rotor w/shaft which have two coils that projects towards stator the two poles N-S, also the slip rings for brushes attached to shaft.
2- Exciter Feeding Stator Coils.
3- Upper housing with brushes which are connected to a very simple circuit: one electrolytic cap and a diode.

So, the Stator Feed Coils generate AC, and connect to Input of brush circuit -on upper housing- then pass through rectifier to output to rotor coils DC Power.


Point is that a Generator Head is a completely self-POWERED running machine, without the need of ANY external power supply.

So all that Gen Head requires is that we rotate it at a fixed-constant speed, so it will be capable of self-maintaining a constant auto generated power to supply its Exciter plus Output a greater Power for Loads.

Normally these types of generator's exciter system run on 150-200V and 2.0 Amps=400 Watts, and their output can be rated from 800 up to 5000 to 7000 Watts...

And, all we need to do...is rotate its shaft.

When the rotary generator is under load stress, it is understood that it needs to increase speed to compensate for the output demand, as the torque also needs to increase to overcome the stiffened magnetic conditions.

But in a solid-state generator, torque is not required, just speed or frequency increase when loaded, since the virtual field can displace through metal mass without opposition...

So, here that rule you mentioned for amperage rise using torque increase is out of the equation for a solid-state generator, correct?

Now, if we go back to a rotary generator, the fact that a torque increase is required, is basically because the 'magnetic stiffness' or Lenz Law, or magnetic Lockup, that makes rotation harder to move and -of course- torque is required to surpass the lockup force.

In simple mechanics, we have an opposing force to rotation, and then we need to increase the rotation force or torque, above that opposing force, then rotor reaches required speed to maintain a stable and higher output.

So, in your belief, what would be the requirement to increase amperage (above input amps, like a generator does) on a solid-state generator?

IMO, on a Solid-State Generator, like Figuera, all we need is to have a constant speed/Frequency of Field Movement...Plus a CONSTANT POWER FEED to Exciter Coils.

In other words, even our power supplied to exciter coils being constant, we CAN NOT have INTERNAL FLUCTUATIONS (coil to coil transfers, reversals, etc) Which do not keep Magnetic Field CONSTANT IN STRENGTH AT ALL TIME during operation.

HOWEVER, having in mind that by moving this field we can NOT have FLUCTUATIONS (basically, up and downs in currents as on inductance values) on Power Supplied to Exciter Field Circuit, as you have stated on your first post, in order to have a constant stable output.

If we go back to the way a simple rotary generator exciter works as I have described above...the Power to Exciter Circuit is ALWAYS STABLE, without any fluctuations.

I only hope you understand well this long post, but any questions let me know.

Thanks, Citfta for your great support!!

Regards

Ufopolitics

@ufopolitics, I am confused and not sure what you are saying: there is an electric flow generated without changing magnetic flux/strength ?
 I am pretty sure you want to say, there is 1 magnetic flux constant all the time and a second one (or many more) which fluctuate (or changing direction) all the time.

Quote from: Classic on Jul 24, 2024, 07:50 PM@ufopolitics, I am confused and not sure what you are saying: there is an electric flow generated without changing magnetic flux/strength ?
 I am pretty sure you want to say, there is 1 magnetic flux constant all the time and a second one (or many more) which fluctuate (or changing direction) all the time.

Hello Classic,

What I am saying is that at the Exciter Coils, mounted on Rotor, which are magnetized on two pole (N-S) generator, the power requirements are that Magnetic Field keeps with a CONSTANT STRENGTH, obtained with a CONSTANT FEED of Power.

The Flux variation is obtained through rotation of an always magnetized (N/S) and powered constantly steady, Rotor.

Ufopolitics

I will allow myself some remarks.

Several factors are responsible for the formation of EMF in the generator phase wire.  Everything is based on the general Faraday formula [E = - dF/dt]. The main condition is the magnetic field, more precisely its magnetic induction value. When magnetic induction changes, an electromotive force is generated. The vector of magnetic induction for cutting the force lines of the conductor Bm (or the resultant of magnetic flux in the ring ANAPOL: Φ = Bm * C), then comes the rate of change of magnetic induction (in metres per second or frequency). The length of the conductor is already a constant component, but it is no less important. 

We have two formulas for the contact at cutting of the conductor by force lines [E = Bm*l*v*sin(a)] and for the anapole moment [E = 2πΦf / √2 = 4.44 Φf ] at the focus of changing magnetic flux where the conductor is placed.

This is the condition for the creation of electric potential difference - electric induction, at the ends of the conductor: zero and (+/- alternately).
 
If the conductor with induced EMF is closed in an electric circuit with a load, there will be another moment, electromagnetic induction (just the one I specified from Maxwell, in his equation to Ampere's law). The electric field (electric induction around the conductor - EMF) is converted into a magnetic field (magnetic induction around the conductor Bi). In the electrical system the measurement is Amperes, in the magnetic system it is Tesla).

All this is verified in the solution of an elementary problem (Link (https://ua-hho.do.am/load/0-0-0-78-20)).

The electromagnetic torque of a generator, is also a consequence of this transformation, where the rotor needs to overcome the magnetic attraction between the magnetic rotor and the stator. In a solid state system, we need to get the magnetic field from the phase current, to vary linearly in time. This is the element of flux-coupling that almost all searchers overlook.

The current is responsible for the strength of the current in an electrical circuit with a load, where the generator is the source of the electric potential difference. It is called a current generator by its principle of operation, it does not produce current, it generates EMF.

I also wanted to tell you what the electrical generator design engineers told me. Designing of electric generators is the highest pilotage in designing of electromechanisms.  Almost all the features of such solutions remain in the respective design offices.


 


 

The first alternators were the simplest and made in 1832 by the French physicist Pixie and an unknown man who wrote a letter to Faraday. This I reviewed in my publication The invention of the electromagnetic generator (https://rakatskiy-blogspot-com.translate.goog/2023/02/over-unity-system.html?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru&_x_tr_pto=wapp).

Both of these generators had a permanent magnet for excitation and coils wound on cores. The maximum EMF in such generators is when the entire magnetic flux is shorted to ANAPOLE, The magnetic lines can in no way cut the coil conductor.

I have drawn a slide explaining the principle of EMF induction in the simplest core generator. I hope it will push you to the fact that you need to think and not everything that declare physics textbooks is reality. Otherwise there would be no conflict between engineers and physicists in this matter.

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhPopDXbekW65R4jqLNzjF1uswJ6A2EymhCpYEgchzwmPL5-Kcm5cvrwAdqHrBpcoJIdYLsA6YNN5vtCSvZ6gfW-epiSrCKmCEoVGX2RdhWH5oG_v-BKiE3loImMzUhrYCPYzvGcoT7b8YUjCSZCTWIPfhyye3q8bou5n0bkhHzAFFTXSdxy23i-imWuL0/s1038/2023-06-23_115337.jpg)

Rakasky..

Take your model.  Make the magnet stationary and orient it so the poles are Up and Down. Magnet does not move.

Now rotate a ferrous 2 pole rotor around the magnet.

Now the Moving Rotor's Mass SHRINKS the magnetic field on approach and GROWS on Exit.  

shrink.JPG

According to my understandings, we now have a full cancellation of drag.  We reversed the magnetic interaction compared to a normal generator, which the induced coil's field assists rotation of the ferrous mass..   BUT the assistance is negated by the counter force that will occur when the rotor is entering and exiting the magnetic fields of the magnets. 

This is the theory behind my current build happening at https://www.mooker.com/thread-159.html


This was the first build's results:


I am in the process of building it with bigger coils.  The first tests should take place today sometime.

@floodrod

Your comment is completely OFF TOPIC.

This Topic is about Discussion of EXISTING Generators and Alternators Principles.

NOT about showing off your development(s) plus links to YOUR site!!

I will delete your post here.

Ufopolitics

Quote from: floodrod on Jul 25, 2024, 10:31 AMNow the Moving Rotor's Mass SHRINKS the magnetic field on approach and GROWS on Exit. 

@floodrod

You got it COMPLETELY OPPOSITE at 180º WRONG!! on ALL "Your Theories" PLUS ABOVE STATEMENT!!

Whenever ANY piece of steel approaches a Magnetic Field it GROWS IT, IT EXPANDS IT...NOT SHRINK IT!!

STEEL IS ATTRACTED BY MAGNETIC FIELDS, FIELD EXPANDS ON THE CLOSE PRESENCE OF STEEL, NEVER "SHRINKS" !!

I am NOT going to allow you being spreading your FALSE "ASSUMPTIONS" ALL OVER THIS SITE!!

It will completely CONFUSE READERS HERE!!

I asked you VERY POLITELY ON A PRIVATE MESSAGE about this matter...

BUT, INSTEAD, your approach was ALL INSULTS.

And as you have asked me to delete your profile, I will just 'mute' it by now...my decision may change anytime.


Ufopolitics

THIS TOPIC WAS OPEN BY CITFTA TO CORRECT FLOODROD ABOUT HIS FALSE "ASSUMPTIONS", WHICH, BECAUSE "HE THINKS THEY ARE RIGHT", DECIDES TO KEEP POSTING THEM.

Quote from: floodrod on Jul 23, 2024, 03:52 PMEssentially, the magnetic field in a generator's rotor gets STRONGER as it approaches the pickup coil and WEAKER as it departs.

THE ABOVE STATEMENT BY FLOODROD IS COMPLETELY WRONG!!

Quote from: floodrod on Jul 23, 2024, 03:52 PMNow compare that to a transformer..  There is NO DISTANCE VARIATIONS..  The Coils are Fixed in place..  A transformer is forced to accept the Helpful growing wave, AND accept the hurtful Shrinking wave.

THE ABOVE STATEMENT BY FLOODROD IS ALSO COMPLETELY WRONG!!

As I correct him on my Post:  Solid State Generator- Increased Frequency = Increased Output W/ Lower Input - Page 3 (overunitymachines.com) (https://overunitymachines.com/index.php/topic,75.msg1772.html#msg1772)

Then floodrod ADMITS he is wrong...after this Topic was created:

Quote from: floodrod on Jul 23, 2024, 09:24 PM[...]And yes I acknowledge something is off with my theory I presented...{...}

But then after that took place, on this Topic HERE, he comes back and post his comment, which is based on the same BS!!

FACT CHECK: The Magnetic Field in a Generator ONLY HAVE FLUCTUATIONS WHENEVER WE LOAD IT, AND WHEN 'NO LOAD CONDITIONS' it goes back to IDLE MODE.

NEVER BECAUSE "FIELD APPROACHES OR LEAVE STEEL, OR OUTPUT COILS NOT CALLED "PICK UP COIL" EITHER!!

Pickup Coil is specific name for Ignition Coils, or other designs which are completely different design than those in a Generator.

ALL THIS IS, IS CONFUSION!

Ufopolitics

Quote from: floodrod on Jul 25, 2024, 10:31 AMRakasky..

Take your model.  Make the magnet stationary and orient it so the poles are Up and Down. Magnet does not move.

Now rotate a ferrous 2 pole rotor around the magnet.

Now the Moving Rotor's Mass SHRINKS the magnetic field on approach and GROWS on Exit. 

shrink.JPG

Hello [color=var(--body-link-color)]floodrod[/color] (https://overunitymachines.com/index.php?action=profile;u=21) ! If you want to talk about the creation of generators, where technical solutions reduce the electromagnetic torque on the shaft, you can do this in my thread "The Theory of an Electromagnetic Generator". In general, first you need to understand how traditional generators with or without cores work.

I also tested this technique a lot for obtaining the generation effect using a permanent magnet in the core of rotating parts.
The magnet must be closed in series, in a magnetic circuit with magnetic flux. In the figure I indicated how the magnetic flux is closed in an electromagnetic generator with a permanent excitation magnet:


(https://ua-hho.do.am/_ph/1/370914545.jpg)

A )  diagram of the simplest electromagnetic generator with a core and a rotating magnetic rotor ( yellow magnetic flux closed in a ring - ANAPOL (https://translate.google.com/website?sl=ru&tl=en&hl=ru&client=webapp&u=http://www.femto.com.ua/articles/part_1/0132.html%23:~:text%3D%D0%90%D0%9D%D0%90%D0%9F%D0%9E%D0%9B%D0%AC%20%28%D0%BE%D1%82%20%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%87.%20an%20-%20%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%82.%20%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0%20%D0%B8,-%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C%20%D1%8D%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%87.%20%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B0%2C%20%D1%81%20-%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C%20%D1%81%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B0%20%D0%B2%20%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B5.) ( from the Greek  an - negative particle and polos  - pole ), a toroidal dipole - a system of currents, the electromagnetic field of which is characterized by  the anapole moment vector . Change  the anapole moment  generally leads over time to the radiation of a system of electromagnetic waves. ), in red - the zone of focus of the magnetic flux, where the phenomenon of the anapole moment occurs with the formation of the effect of electromagnetic radiation, due to which an EMF is induced on a conductor placed in this zone. This phenomenon is calculated using the engineering formula of transformer EMF: