Lorentz Force versus Maxwell's equations, different laws yielding same results.

[solarlab]

Ufopolitics,

Don't get too hung-up on the "single wire" - it's probably used in the explainations
to simplify things.

Your explaination tends to focus on a single wire (may be misleading at first glance):

Consider "Current Density [J]" - the amount of charge per unit time that flows through
a unit area of chosen "Cross Section" - a vector whose magnitude is the electric
current per cross-section area at a given point in space.

Measured in amperes per square meter - a single wire of cross section "A" or a bunch
of wires with cross section "A" in m².

SL

SL,

I believe you are the one who is getting hung on the single wire, single charge, single magnetic field.

The main point here is that a "single wire loop" does not project a Spatial Secondary Field.

And it is not just "to simplify things"...otherwise it would give us the first and second laws (for single and multiple strands)


Ufopolitics

Ufo,

You seem to have it all figured out already - great! Hope it helps you in your work...

""SL,
I believe you are the one who is getting hung on the single wire, single charge, single magnetic field.
Couldn't find any reference of mine to a single wire prior my reference to A/M^{2 - but I'll look agian!
[Appears like the "ole - attack the person stuff, rather than discuss the technology - but that's common these days]}

The main point here is that a "single wire loop" does not project a Spatial Secondary Field.""

Without discussion of the "two formulas" I find it difficult to "see any differences." Maxwell, BTW,
analyzes the point space in 3 Dimensions - that's why it's hard/impossible to "see" in a planar space.

Anyway, I guess we view things from differing angles; so I'll leave you to your analysis
plus I'll avoid of the "Sand Box" scenario.

However, on the Lorentz Force page that you cite several times, you left out the bottom part -
the part where there is an on-line calculator which is very hand for a first pass calculation.

Once you understand the two equations, and their operation, it can be very useful...

SL

[Ufopolitics]

Ufo,

You seem to have it all figured out already - great! Hope it helps you in your work...

SL,
It will help you also on your work...

""SL,
I believe you are the one who is getting hung on the single wire, single charge, single magnetic field.
Couldn't find any reference of mine to a single wire prior my reference to A/M^{2 - but I'll look agian!
[Appears like the "ole - attack the person stuff, rather than discuss the technology - but that's common these days]}

SL, it is not about any attacks, I meant that you are only seeing (hung) on my "single wire" that I write here, without seeing what comes after, as a consequence of "a single wire" construct.

The main point here is that a "single wire loop" does not project a Spatial Secondary Field.

Without discussion of the "two formulas" I find it difficult to "see any differences." Maxwell, BTW,
analyzes the point space in 3 Dimensions - that's why it's hard/impossible to "see" in a planar space.

I can NOT see why a "two formulas discussion" would bring any light here, as how this could help to discuss the complete deletion (by Lorentz) of a Secondary Field under discussion here.

Anyway, I guess we view things from differing angles; so I'll leave you to your analysis
plus I'll avoid of the "Sand Box" scenario.

No, we are not seeing it "from different angles", obviously you are openly avoiding answering my previous question:

So, please provide on any Lorentz Force Formulas that you can find out there, where is this Second B-Field ?? configured by the loop of the single wire or several turns of wire (supposing 'single wire loop' is completely "hypothetical") within the Static Magnetic Field which is the ONLY ONE denoted as B...and of course, running a current on wire(s) denoted by charge 'q'.
I will be waiting...
Ufopolitics

Ufopolitics

[solarlab]

Ufopolitics,

Don't get too hung-up on the "single wire" - it's probably used in the explainations
to simplify things.

Your explaination tends to focus on a single wire (may be misleading at first glance):

Consider "Current Density [J]" - the amount of charge per unit time that flows through
a unit area of chosen "Cross Section" - a vector whose magnitude is the electric
current per cross-section area at a given point in space.

Measured in amperes per square meter - a single wire of cross section "A" or a bunch
of wires with cross section "A" in m².

SL

SL,

I believe you are the one who is getting hung on the single wire, single charge, single magnetic field.

The main point here is that a "single wire loop" does not project a Spatial Secondary Field.

And it is not just "to simplify things"...otherwise it would give us the first and second laws (for single and multiple strands)

However, this is easy to reconcile (find/settle) on Ampere-Maxwell Laws, as also on Gauss Law for Magnetism:

If we go to ALL the Lorentz Mathematical Equations about his Force Law, you will NOT find a single one that have a "Secondary" B-Field (magnetic field) ...it is all about ONE B-FIELD, ONE E-FIELD.

It is obvious that the single wire, having a moving (q)charge within a B-Field will manifest a Force F the way he states.

However, everything changes when we apply Ampere, Gauss and Maxwell Laws (see image again, above.) many conductors, having ALL the same circular current flow, GENERATES A FIELD, another B-Field, a Second Magnetic Field.

So, please provide on any Lorentz Force Formulas that you can find out there, where is this Second B-Field ?? configured by the loop of the single wire or several turns of wire (supposing 'single wire loop' is completely "hypothetical") within the Static Magnetic Field which is the ONLY ONE denoted as B...and of course, running a current on wire(s) denoted by charge 'q'.

I will be waiting...


Ufopolitics

"Second B-Field" ? Never hear of such a thing, especially in an "Laws" that I've ever seen or studied.

You just can't make stuff up to suit your explainations, etc. - best to stick to the known laws as
they are presented.

So, I can not answer your question - maybe it's valid and I've just never heard of it... ever -
not even sure what a "second b-field" would be! In a design all the fields run together...

SL

[Ufopolitics]

"Second B-Field" ? Never hear of such a thing, especially in an "Laws" that I've ever seen or studied.

SL,

Do you know what a B-Field is?...yeah, go, run to search it...

Three Phase AC Motors and Generators, NOT ONLY have Two, BUT Three B-Fields, each out of phase, where each Phase is configured by one Coil or a group of overlapped coils.

Every time you energize one coil in one given System, that has its own B-Field.

You just can't make stuff up to suit your explainations, etc. - best to stick to the known laws as
they are presented.

First you told me "I am getting hung on a single wire"...
And now you are telling ME, that I am "making stuff up"?!

What is this, an RC Flying Forum now? paraphrasing you.

So, I can not answer your question - maybe it's valid and I've just never heard of it... ever -
not even sure what a "second b-field" would be!

The fact that You have no idea, do not know about "something"...it does not mean "it does not exist", much less to tell the person who is mentioning it, that He is "making stuff up"...maybe for your knowledge it does not exist.

In a design all the fields run together...

SL

Negative, Nope...there are MANY Systems that comprehend more than one B-Field, which are not necessarily "running together" as one field.

And finally, for your knowledge, (because obviously you do not know about me nor my work) I do not "make stuff up" to fit my explanations.

I BUILD SETUPS to prove MY THEORIES, and when REAL TESTING (Not Software Simulations) confirms them, only then, I write about them as I validate them.


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

ALL MATERIAL REFERENCED HERE COULD BE VERIFIED AT:

HAWKINS ELECTRICAL GUIDE SERIES BOOKS VOL 2 (1914)

Page 262-263

Cross Magnetization; Field Distortion.—In the operation of a dynamo with load, the induced current flowing in the armature winding, converts the armature into an electromagnet setting up a field across or at right angles to the field of the machine. This cross magnetization of the armature tends to distort the field produced by the field magnets, the effect being known as armature reaction. To understand the nature of this reaction it is best to first consider the effect of the field current and the armature current separately.

Ques. Explain the action of the current supplied to a motor for its operation.

Ans. The motor current passing through the field magnets polarizes them and establishes a magnetic field, and entering the armature, polarizes its core in such a way that the positive pole of the core is away from the negative pole of the magnetic field, and the negative pole is away from the positive pole of the magnetic field. The magnetic repulsions and attractions thus created cause the armature to rotate in a position of magnetic equilibrium or so as to bring its positive and negative poles opposite the negative and positive poles respectively of the magnetic field. It is evident that unless suitable means were provided to reverse the polarity of the armature core at the instant it reached the position of the magnetic equilibrium, the armature would not rotate any further. The construction is such that the polarity of the armature core, or the direction of the current in the armature coils is reversed at the proper instant automatically by the commutator, thus giving continuous rotation.

Page 366

Armature Reaction in Motors.—In the operation of a motor the reaction between the armature and field magnets distorts the field in a similar manner as in the operation of a dynamo. A current supplied from an outside source magnetizes the armature of a motor and transforms it into an electromagnet, whose poles would lie nearly at right angies to the line joining the pole pieces, were it not for the fact that negative lead must be given to the brushes.

Ufopolitics