Overunity Machines

I was circling this idea months ago and today I figured out the missing piece.  

This is a small test with a function generator and a Figuera Triplet to see if I could Increase Output with Increased Frequency WITHOUT Raising Input.

Mission Accomplished..  Now to plan a bigger build. I will be documenting it all at https://www.mooker.com/showthread.php?tid=172 (https://www.mooker.com/showthread.php?tid=172)  BUT I will also share milestones on this thread.

Here is the small test to demonstrate higher frequency raising output while lowering input.

Great find floodrod!!

I have also worked on a similar setup, where if I increased Frequency, Output Voltage would increase, as Input Voltage and Amperage would decrease.

However, normally when this happens, the Output Amperage would also decrease...basically, if we are working on an Induction Generator type similar to Figuera.

So, I would recommend making sure you check the Variation of Output Amperage on different frequencies increase.

It is easy to add a Second in-line Amp meter between one of the terminals of the loaded 8 Ohm resistor you have there.

Regards and good luck on next tests!

Ufopolitics

Will do. I will publish the test later. 

Due to the fact that there was a resistor as a load, amperage follows ohm's law. If voltage drop of the resistor increases, so does amperage. 

Quote from: floodrod on Jul 17, 2024, 04:33 PMWill do. I will publish the test later.

Due to the fact that there was a resistor as a load, amperage follows ohm's law. If voltage drop of the resistor increases, so does amperage.

Quote from: Jim MacUnfortunately the results I originally posted were NOT what I am looking for.  I desire to see the supply current go UP as the output raises, And I also desire to see the output Go UP with frequency..

Seeing the supply current go DOWN will not accomplish my goal.

I will update when I nail it down or if there are questions as to "WHY".

Hello Floodrod,

Well, I was waiting for a result to be posted here...days went by, then I went to your Topic link at mooker and found your latest results quoted by me above...

I am sincerely sorry that the current did not go up by increasing frequency, but instead went down.

As I have posted before, based on all my testing on similar setups, currents will not go up by just increasing frequency...

IMHO, this is due that at higher frequencies - more commonly, if exciters are not properly balanced- the moving virtual field loses 'compactness' and pressures decay, becoming less stronger to rise amps.

Wish you better luck on further attempts.

Ufopolitics

Hello UFO. No actually the output current did go up along with the voltage. But it is not what I'm looking for. 

I am looking for the input current to go up. Not go down. 

Most Will not see me eye to eye on this. But take an alternator and separate the rotor coils from the output coils. Monitor current as you increase RPM. I am pretty sure you will see an alternator current increase in the rotor as output current increases

Quote from: floodrod on Jul 22, 2024, 12:08 PMHello UFO. No actually the output current did go up along with the voltage. But it is not what I'm looking for.

I am looking for the input current to go up. Not go down.

Most Will not see me eye to eye on this. But take an alternator and separate the rotor coils from the output coils. Monitor current as you increase RPM. I am pretty sure you will see an alternator current increase in the rotor as output current increases

Hello Floodrod,

You are right...I am 'not seeing you eye to eye' on this...

As I understand for the supply current to go up you need to have a feedback from output to exciter...unless you are looking for self-induction.
You disconnect the rotor exciter from the output coils regulator on an alternator...and no, you will not see the rotor amps go up...as a matter of fact the whole output will collapse as well.

Anyways, good luck in what you are searching for.

Ufopolitics 

Quote from: floodrod on Jul 22, 2024, 12:08 PMHello UFO. No actually the output current did go up along with the voltage.

Hello Floodrod,

As me and I know many here would like to see that video test where output amps go up with the loaded resistor as you rise the frequency...

Thanks

Ufopolitics

I can set it back up and show, but it's redundant because the parameters I need to meet are not met.  As a note, you DID see the voltage through a resistor increase with frequency in my video.  When Voltage increases across a resistive load, so does the current. V=IxR

I will attempt to explain why the parameters are not met..  BUT I have a feeling I will not be able to finish my explanation because I will probably end up being challenged and debated even before my explanation is complete.  In which case my explanation will stop.

First Part:

MUTUAL Induction.  Take note of the Bold word "MUTUAL"..

We have GROWING or STRENGTHENING power entering 1 inductor. This will Induce a current in a secondary inductor.  When the secondary circuit is complete, the Secondary Induces the back to the Primary in an equal fashion.  This is why it is called "MUTUAL Induction".  1 induces 2,  then 2 induces 1 mutually.

Now this newly induced current in Coil #1 (from mutual induction) has to travel through the source supply to complete it's travels.  So 1 of 2 things can happen.

1-  the induced current in the primary can travel to the negative of the battery and out the positive, thus raising the current flowing through the source.

2. or the induced current can travel to the positive of the battery and out the negative, thus lowering the current flowing through the source.

A primary coil BECOMES a Battery!..  Exactly like Buforn specifies in many of his patents..  He specifically calls the rows of inducers "Batteries" many times within his patents.  Because when mutual induction occurs, the primary circuit now has 2 power sources connected together.


mutual.JPG

Now I plan on continuing and going much further with this explanation, but I have noticed on most forums it is near impossible to explain anything because people are quick to jump in and "correct" everything and re-explain it the way they see it or the way they learned it, adding confusion and ultimately resulting in a debate.  SO if this happens, my explanation ends.

Myself, I refrain from jumping in other threads where I disagree with the logic.  Instead I read silently allowing the poster to express his views without me shutting them down before they can even get to the point.

But this first part is the basics of Mutual Induction. And I believe the answer to replicating a generator without motion hinges on the nuances I am about to cover

Part 2..

Standard Transformer. 

A standard transformer works with mutual induction.  Whatever power is drawn from the secondary "MUTUALLY" induces the primary with equal power.

The mutually induced primary sends that mutually induced power around it's loop.  The direction the mutually induced power takes ENTERS the negative of the source.

always NEG.JPG

This is why Source Current RISES in proportion to the power we draw from the secondary.  Mutual induction back to the primary causes the primary to become a power source of it's own. And it is in series with the original power source. 

Power a 10 Ω resistor with a AA battery and we get 0.15A of current going through the resistor.

Now power the same resistor with 2X AA batteries in series and we now get 0.3A of current going through the same resistor.

This is what's happening in a transformer where the primary becomes the 2nd battery that is in series with the source.  Pulling current from the secondary mutually induces the primary and the primary now becomes a "Power Source" which is wired in Series with the Supplying Source. 

2 batts.JPG

The amperage in the source circuit INCREASES proportionally to the power we draw from the secondary. 

Next I will explain WHY a generator can produce more than it takes to sustain the magnetic field of the rotor and why a Transformer can not..

Part 3..

Standard Transformer-

In a standard transformer powered by pure AC and the secondary hooked up to a resistive load, the Input and Output waves Peak at the same time..  The changing of the waves is congruent on Input and Output.  When the input declines and passes the ZERO Line, the Output also crosses the Zero line at the same time..  

This ensures the direction of the "Mutual induction" back to the primary ALWAYS flows current to the negative of the battery the Entire Time.  When the input changes polarity, so does the output..

Now this is GREAT for the Growing side of the wave....  As the growing wave increases in amplitude, the primary coil becomes a battery and is in series with the supply Source.  So the Mutually Induced current in the primary ASSISTS the growing wave grow..  

BUT...  What goes UP Must Come Down..  

This is where it hurts..  When the Input of the primary is trying to REDUCE amplitude and DECLINE from Peak to Zero, the current from the Mutual Induced Primary STILL Goes to the negative from this side of the wave and Sums with the supply voltage.  

Why does this hurt us?   Because the input is trying to REDUCE it's amplitude BUT the primary is still acting like a second battery in series and INCREASING the Source Power when the Source is trying to DECLINE in power.  

So the DECLINING part of the sinewave (From Peak to ZERO) is what's keeping a transformer Underunity or at best-  Unity. 

Next I will describe the differences in a rotating generator and WHY it behaves differently than a transformer..

Part 4:-  Dynamo's

First let me quote Buforn:

QuoteThere are two different ways to modify the intensity of such a flow. One is by
varying the distances between the induced and the inductor circuits. All
machines magneto or dynamo electric from the Clarke one to the most
advanced, are according to this principle and all have the defect of Lenz-law
as stated above

Generators "Vary The Distance" between the Induced and the Inducer Circuit.  

When a magnetic field is GROWING, the Distance between the rotor and stator is Shrinking..  Meaning the 2 coils are coming CLOSER together...

And when a magnetic field of a Generator is SHRINKING, the distance between the Rotor and Stator coils is INCREASING..

Now take this and apply it to what I stated in my past posts...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Place a pickup coil by a primary coil and measure the induced power..  Now separate them and bring them further away and now measure the induced power..  Obviously, the closer they are, the more current will be induced into the pickup coil.  Likewise, the Further away the coils are from each other, the LESS will be induced into the pickup coil..

This is why a generator can do what it does..  The HURTFUL part of induction occurs on the SHRINKING Wave..  And by the very design, a Generator happens to be INCREASING THE DISTANCE during the very timing when the extra Mutual Induced Power is NOT Wanted in the primary!

A generator capitalizes on the Growing field by LESSENING the Distance, allowing all the helpful Mutual Induction into the primary ASSIST in raising the Growing Wave..

And on the Decline, the Generator INCREASES THE DISTANCE of the coils, thus Escaping or Dampening the Mutual Induction back to the primary at the exact time we WANT the source wave to DECREASE..

As you may know, a Generator can output 10X+ the power that it takes to sustain the magnetic field of the rotor (NOT Including the power to rotate the rotor)..

A generator output is so substantial because it brings the coils close together at the exact time where the Mutual Induction to the primary Benefits us,  and Separates the coils at the EXACT TIME the mutual induction HURTS us. 

Essentially, the magnetic field in a generator's rotor gets STRONGER as it approaches the pickup coil and WEAKER as it departs.  Fully In-Tune with the Output Wave.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now compare that to a transformer..  There is NO DISTANCE VARIATIONS..  The Coils are Fixed in place..  A transformer is forced to accept the Helpful growing wave, AND accept the hurtful Shrinking wave.

~~~~~~~~~~

Hopefully now it is clear why I said earlier that I want to see Input Current INCREASE, NOT Decrease..  I need to see MORE current flowing through the rotor / primary coil when I harvest a load to confirm the primary coil is acting like a battery in series with the source.  

It may sound counter-intuitive on the surface, and I have a feeling I will get more criticism than agreeing comments. But this is my aim and I think I described the chain of events the best I can. 

Quote from: floodrod on Jul 23, 2024, 03:52 PMPart 4:-  Dynamo's

First let me quote Buforn:

QuoteThere are two different ways to modify the intensity of such a flow. One is by varying the distances between the induced and the inductor circuits. All
machines magneto or dynamo electric from the Clarke one to the most
advanced, are according to this principle and all have the defect of Lenz-law
as stated above

Generators "Vary The Distance" between the Induced and the Inducer Circuit. 

When a magnetic field is GROWING, the Distance between the rotor and stator is Shrinking..  Meaning the 2 coils are coming CLOSER together...

And when a magnetic field of a Generator is SHRINKING, the distance between the Rotor and Stator coils is INCREASING..

Now take this and apply it to what I stated in my past posts...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Place a pickup coil by a primary coil and measure the induced power..  Now separate them and bring them further away and now measure the induced power..  Obviously, the closer they are, the more current will be induced into the pickup coil.  Likewise, the Further away the coils are from each other, the LESS will be induced into the pickup coil..

This is why a generator can do what it does..  The HURTFUL part of induction occurs on the SHRINKING Wave..  And by the very design, a Generator happens to be INCREASING THE DISTANCE during the very timing when the extra Mutual Induced Power is NOT Wanted in the primary!

A generator capitalizes on the Growing field by LESSENING the Distance, allowing all the helpful Mutual Induction into the primary ASSIST in raising the Growing Wave..

And on the Decline, the Generator INCREASES THE DISTANCE of the coils, thus Escaping or Dampening the Mutual Induction back to the primary at the exact time we WANT the source wave to DECREASE..

As you may know, a Generator can output 10X+ the power that it takes to sustain the magnetic field of the rotor (NOT Including the power to rotate the rotor)..

A generator output is so substantial because it brings the coils close together at the exact time where the Mutual Induction to the primary Benefits us,  and Separates the coils at the EXACT TIME the mutual induction HURTS us.

Essentially, the magnetic field in a generator's rotor gets STRONGER as it approaches the pickup coil and WEAKER as it departs.  Fully In-Tune with the Output Wave. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now compare that to a transformer..  There is NO DISTANCE VARIATIONS..  The Coils are Fixed in place..  A transformer is forced to accept the Helpful growing wave, AND accept the hurtful Shrinking wave.

~~~~~~~~~~

Hopefully now it is clear why I said earlier that I want to see Input Current INCREASE, NOT Decrease..  I need to see MORE current flowing through the rotor / primary coil when I harvest a load to confirm the primary coil is acting like a battery in series with the source. 

It may sound counter-intuitive on the surface, and I have a feeling I will get more criticism than agreeing comments. But this is my aim and I think I described the chain of events the best I can.

Hello Floodrod,

Great analysis!, basically on this quoted post above.

I have to say that I agree with you in a 90 to 95%, first, because you are using the same approach than Figuera and Buforn used. And I do agree 100% with their point of view.

When Figuera in 1908 (before Buforn got his Patents) analyzes a 'Dynamo' He based it on the "Approach" to then "Get further away"...relating to the Exciting/Inductor/Primary Field Coils...

Now, there are just a couple of statements on your post above that I hate to disagree with you...

First:

Quote from: floodrod on Jul 23, 2024, 03:52 PMEssentially, the magnetic field in a generator's rotor gets STRONGER as it approaches the pickup coil and WEAKER as it departs.

The Magnetic Field in the Rotor of a Generator [And an Alternator as well] (assuming that you are referring to the Exciter Coils Field, or Inducting Field) only increases, whenever we add a load, and as soon as the AVR raises to the desired Compensated Voltage (based on the Output Reading), then it stops and maintains this values for the time the load is on.
So, no, it is not a 'normal operation' of any generator's exciter magnetic field to become 'stronger' as it approaches the output Field Coils, to then decrease its strength when it departs.
The Exciter Field(s) in a generator or alternator keeps its magnetic field very stable (related to V &A) while supplying power to a load.
Again, at idle or no-load condition, it goes down; while going 3000 RPM's...but is very simple to measure this...I have done it on a Brushed Single-Phase Generator, before loading and after.
And as soon as you load generator (with a heavy load, of course, not with just one light bulb...but, say with an electrical air compressor) ...you are closing the circuit on output Field Coils,Rotor tends to lockup and RPM's drops, immediately the governor of the ICE carburation or injection system, opens its gas throttle to rise RPM's, as AVR detects a fall on output currents, and it ramps up power to exciting fields. This is the only time the exciter field strengthens.

The second one I disagree with, is your field 'not moving' comparing to a transformer:

Quote from: floodrod on Jul 23, 2024, 03:52 PMNow compare that to a transformer..  There is NO DISTANCE VARIATIONS..  The Coils are Fixed in place..  A transformer is forced to accept the Helpful growing wave, AND accept the hurtful Shrinking wave.

A Transformer works normally with AC (unless it is a Pulsed PWM DC type) and still, in both currents, there are variations on the Magnetic Field, according to variations on currents.

On the basic AC Sinewave, there is a smooth up and a smooth down, on smooth up, the field grows to peak, then it starts to decay, smoothly also, as whenever it passes zero it reverses the magnetic field polarization, to then make the same operation on the negative side of sine.

So basically, on a transformer the field does not move on the conventional way a rotary generator does, however, it increases and decreases the Field Volume on the same place.

There always need to be a 'field variation/change" to be an induction, Faraday 1831.

But anyways, those are the only two points that I disagree, however, I do believe you have -in general-a great point, and I wish you the best of luck on your future developments and tests.

And I would like to read the opinions of others (basically those "knowledgeable on the arts", like @citfta related to the discussion here.

Regards

Ufopolitics

So here is a video of my Latest build.

If you wanted proof of Increased Output Power with Frequency- here it is..


And yes I acknowledge something is off with my theory I presented.  I am sure this is virtually rotating, but my input current does not go up as I expected.

It's a shame that you deleted the video.
For greater effect, the rotor must be made external with focusing of the electromagnets into the internal cavity, and the stator must be made internal. The main thing is that the cross section of the magnetic flux is more or less sufficient to focus the anapole moment on the phase wires in the stator slot, for the peak EMF. Another recommendation is not to try to make the output phase AC into the load. The problem with these designs is voltage regulation with a constantly changing load. You already control electromagnets through commutation. It is easier to rectify the output current, charge the battery and get useful current from the battery for the inverter and self-propelled vehicle.

Because of the war, I cannot complete my second work "Synchronous mechanical and solid-state generators. Anapole moment." Two illustrations that I prepared to explain the principle of operation of the Anapole moment.The phase wires must be at the focus of the magnetic flux.

Slide-1 (https://ua-hho.do.am/_ph/1/347841035.jpg).
Slide-2 (https://ua-hho.do.am/_ph/1/715950116.jpg).

Hi Raka,

I deleted that last video because I was using frequencies well beyond what Electrical Steel could usually handle. And I am not ready to add that confusion yet.  My initial investigation should only use frequencies under 350 Hz as to not add confusion.

Unfortunately I do not have a wide selection of available stators and armatures.  Since the input is not raising when frequency and output raise, I am hoping I can next increase output from OUTSIDE the stator.  I quickly tested 1 idea and the results were suggestive.  so MAYBE since my current stator can produce >12V with some current available, it "MAY" be able to be multiplied without further loading the input.


Admin, can you please delete the post that has the deleted video.  I don't want to leave fragments