Overunity Machines

Introduction,

After the great find by Member GreyWolf47 about this Manchester Machine, being possibly, the Inspiration to Clemente Figuera on his Generator invention, patented back in 1908...I have decided to go deeper into the research and Study of such DC Generator Machines.

At these times, on the Twenty First Century, it is very hard to find deeper information about these type of machines...so, contributions of any available data and info, would be appreciated.

All these Machines became obsolete technology, after the appearance of the AC Polyphase Generators Worldwide, and basically on the higher developed Countries at that time, like in Europe and the United States, where Nikola Tesla, in a joint Partnership with George Westinghouse, were the winners on the contest to take the contract to illuminate the World Fair, that was taking place in Chicago, back in 1896. Also known as the "War of Currents"...between Westinghouse and Thomas Alba Edison in partnership with J.P. Morgan and General Electric...

Some information appears on the Hawkins Electrical Guide Series Books (https://archive.org/details/hawkins-electrical-guide-series-books/hawkins%20electrical%20guide%20vol-1/page/n5/mode/2up) by Nehemiah Hawkins, first edition on 1914...
And exactly on page 201 of this book (https://archive.org/details/hawkins-electrical-guide-series-books/hawkins%20electrical%20guide%20vol-1/page/200/mode/2up), there is some reference to this machine. (image from book below)

A more detailed Perspective View of the Manchester Bipolar Machine ...

QuoteA 19th Century illustration of the Manchester Dynamo, an electrical generator that creates direct current using a commutator, the first electrical generators capable of delivering power for industry. Manchester based Henry Wilde (1833-1919) invented the dynamo-electric machine, or self-energizing dynamo that replaced the permanent magnets of previous designs with electro-magnets and in so doing achieved an enormous increase in power. Werner von Siemens is more usually credited with the invention, but in fact, discovered independently.

Ufopolitics: Thank you for starting this new thread.

I ALREADY have the iron cores to build this machine and have already wound my center secondary coil with 3013 turns of 22 ga wire. I had the cores for the N pole and S pole electromagnets. They were wound with 300 turns of 16 ga wire in a single continuous coil. I am unwinding them now to   ''REPURPOSE" that wire into the correct configuration. 

The first layer will be 150 turns of 16 ga CCW. The next layer will be 75 turns CCW. The next is 50 turns CCW. Then the last layer of 25 turns CCW. These are the coil series for the N pole electromagnetd controlled by the commutator contacts N1 thru N8. The N1 contact connects to the 25 turn coil and N2 controls the 50 turn coil then the N3 controls the 75 turn coil and the N4 controls the 150 turn coil. The other core will be wound in the same manner except wound CW to give a S pole set and controlled by contacts S9 thru S16. I hope to be testing this device soon.

Quote from: GreyWolf47 on Jan 17, 2024, 06:49 PMUfopolitics: Thank you for starting this new thread.

I ALREADY have the iron cores to build this machine and have already wound my center secondary coil with 3013 turns of 22 ga wire. I had the cores for the N pole and S pole electromagnets. They were wound with 300 turns of 16 ga wire in a single continuous coil. I am unwinding them now to  ''REPURPOSE" that wire into the correct configuration.

The first layer will be 150 turns of 16 ga CCW. The next layer will be 75 turns CCW. The next is 50 turns CCW. Then the last layer of 25 turns CCW. These are the coil series for the N pole electromagnetd controlled by the commutator contacts N1 thru N8. The N1 contact connects to the 25 turn coil and N2 controls the 50 turn coil then the N3 controls the 75 turn coil and the N4 controls the 150 turn coil. The other core will be wound in the same manner except wound CW to give a S pole set and controlled by contacts S9 thru S16. I hope to be testing this device soon.

Hello GreyWolf47,

Great!

Now are you using the same structure as the Manchester have?
Or, meaning 3 Rods in Parallel?
Or following Figuera configuration?
Or straight up all 3 in a line?

Isn't a 22 gauge too small for a Secondary?

Regards

Ufopolitics

Ufopolitic

Greetings my friend.

I have finished winding and labeling all my coils. I will be testing in the morning  attached is the layout.

Ufopolitics: Hello again my friend

In order to fit the configuration of the already existing primary cores, I had to reduce the wire size so I could wind 3000 turns of secondary and it still fit. This is just a quick test to see how close the coil turns match to give me the voltage of 120 volts AC at 60 Hz. I'm not looking to run my house on it yet. Just do some testing. We've got to walk before we run the marathon. I should have preliminary test results by  10 AM central time. I have to unhook my commutator from the other test coil and hook up to the MANCHESTER device.

Cheers!  GreyWolf47

Quote from: Ufopolitics on Jan 17, 2024, 10:15 AM...
At these times, on the Twenty First Century, it is very hard to find deeper information about these type of machines...so, contributions of any available data and info, would be appreciated.
...

Hello everyone,

Here is a DIY set of build instructions for a small Manchester dynamo from Scientific American 1887.
Complete, all info including drawings. Output is 60 volt 10 amp.

It's a big file, 31.4 MB, takes a while to download.
Also attached is a question & answer on how to double the output, with some notes added. Also how to increase the total output 16 times.

Regards,
Cadman


Eight Light Dynamo - Scientific American supp 600 excerpt.pdf
Eight Light Dynamo - expansion info.zip

Many thanks Cadman!!

You just cleared some doubts that I had...related to polarization on stators core.

Plainly speaking, it is like a Horse shoe magnet...where the two ends that meet the Rotor Armature are the N and S.

It is EXACTLY as a BRUSHED DC Motor configuration...Where armature wires run along Rotor shaft (parallel to shaft)


However, that image above is about the Edison type Dynamo...Not the Manchester, please look at image below and compare the poles distribution related to Rotor Armature configuration...is rotated 90º:


Now, that is where my confusion is...I can only imagine this will work, if, the Upper & Lower MASSIVE STEEL CROSSMEMBER between Both Stators COILS are, say North the TOP and the LOWER is South...and to achieve that, BOTH Stator Coils should be EQUALLY facing both North and Bottom South.

Regards

Ufopolitics

Quote from: Ufopolitics on Jan 18, 2024, 09:35 AMMany thanks Cadman!!

You just cleared some doubts that I had...related to polarization on stators core.

Plainly speaking, it is like a Horse shoe magnet...where the two ends that meet the Rotor Armature are the N and S.

It is EXACTLY as a BRUSHED DC Motor configuration...Where armature wires run along Rotor shaft (parallel to shaft)

Regards

Ufopolitics

Hey Ufo,

Of concern to me in this dynamo is the core size. Unless my calculations are wrong, as drawn it has has an area equal to a round core 2.93" in dia.
Doubling the area it's 4.15" dia.

Cadman

Edit:
I guess I posted while you were still adding info to yours.
You're right. It isn't a Manchester. About the coil polarity of the Manchester, I see it the same. It is a consequent pole dynamo. Coil polarities are same at each end, as in both N at the top.

@Cadman :

Hey, look again at my post, I have edited...see the difference between Manchester and Edison Dynamos related to Stators versus rotor armature config...

Regards

Ufopolitics

Hi ufo.

From

Lessons in practical electricity; principles, experiments, and arithmetical problems, an elementary text-book

Quote from: feb_ on Jan 18, 2024, 12:21 PMHi ufo.

From

Lessons in practical electricity; principles, experiments, and arithmetical problems, an elementary text-book

mcmmf.png

Thanks Feb_!!

Awesome!!

It confirms what I was working on!

Ufopolitics 

Quote from: Cadman on Jan 18, 2024, 09:55 AMHey Ufo,
[...]
Edit:
I guess I posted while you were still adding info to yours.
You're right. It isn't a Manchester. About the coil polarity of the Manchester, I see it the same. It is a consequent pole dynamo. Coil polarities are same at each end, as in both N at the top.

Cadman

Hello Cadman,

I am sorry but it is NOT the same configuration between Edison type and Manchester...

Edison Types are like a Horseshoe Magnet, they require the two very high towers to build a very strong Magnetic Field.

While the Manchester Dynamo does not require such large Coils Towers, and still Manchester type produces higher power than Edison's.

Finally, I got an image from a book from those times, where it gives us the magnetic field circuit (look in my post above (^) to see it.

Note that in order to get a Full South Pole on top as a Full North Pole below, the circuit must be two parallel coils, where BOTH COILS are pointing a South Up and a North down, in order to Build two South Poles on top and two norths below at the main massive two crossmembers (up and below)

This is very important to differentiate, related to the concept from Figuera we are working on.

Regards

Ufopolitics

Hello Ufo,

About the coil polarity of the Manchester, I see it the same as you do.  :)  Both NN at top and SS at bottom or vice versa.
Apologies for not making myself clear.

Another difference is the Manchester coil core area can be half the Edison core area and still produce the same flux density to the armature, as the core areas add together in the Manchester while the Edison's does not.


Regards
Cadman

Hello to All,

I do have the conviction, that this specific Manchester Dynamo Machine (https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co8420293/manchester-dynamo-around-1886-direct-current-generator), somehow, trigger Figuera imagination to Reverse Engineer, plus Decompose it, in all its components, to later on conceive the complete eradication of the external mechanical movement required on this type of Dynamo's from the 19th Century...(and up to now on all modern generators)

And it is basically for its SIMPLICITY in construction and components, plus the fact that it was the first one that was able to "SELF FEED ITS EXCITER SYSTEM" and still achieve Industrial Generation of Energy, which it was superior on its time to the older Edison type. So, these Machines only required a Battery to start it (exactly the same as your gas vehicle does now)...and after gaining the operational speed, battery was disconnected...to self-run.

The other main difference about this specific machine, was its Magnetic Circuit at the Stator...where it had Two "Hefty" Main Cylindrical Coils in Parallel Polarity...so that Four Total Magnetic Poles were generated with smaller size coils cores than other types. This advantage FORCED each pair of Poles, on Top and Two on bottom, to direct ALL Flux into its very center, where its Rotor Armature Assembly was located.

For all those reasons above, I will dedicate time to also decompose it in all main components to try and see, what Figuera saw...with the help of our modern Matrix Decomposing 3D Software's, where we can even animate it to run in all axes, even in "3D exploded view"...isn't that great?


Another aspect related to this machine that is still pending to research, is ...How it was able to SELF FEED ITS EXCITING SYSTEM?

If we recall, back in those times, the "Running Generator's Capacitors", Diodes and Varistors, required nowadays for self-exciter systems in Brush or Brushless Generators...were not invented yet?!

People, we still have tons of work ahead of us...

Regards

Ufopolitics

Hello,

All below images and text are from the Science Museum Group, in London, UK, and all images and text are authorized for exposure through CCL Z and CCA 4.0 Licenses.





By the 1880s, electric lighting was the must-have innovation for any self-respecting town. Giants of electricity Tesla, Edison and Westinghouse fought a battle of the currents over the safe transmission of high voltage electricity from power station to customer.

Sebastian Ziani de Ferranti built the world's first central power station at Deptford. He used alternating current (AC) to power London. Whereas in Manchester, engineer Dr John Hopkinson chose direct current (DC) to deliver electricity to customers.

In 1882, Mather & Platt won an exclusive license to manufacture Thomas Edison's DC generator, the Edison Dynamo. A dynamo is a machine that converts mechanical energy into electrical power.

John Hopkinson tested the Edison dynamos at Mather & Platt's Salford Ironworks. Hopkinson improved Edison's design, creating the Edison-Hopkinson Dynamo. In doing so, he introduced major innovations, reducing size, increasing output and improving efficiency.

Hopkinson and his brothers went on to develop the Manchester dynamo. It was based on the first commercially successful electrical power generator, the Gramme dynamo. The Manchester design created a more intense magnetic field. This meant that electricity could be generated at a higher output and more efficiently. Its main use was in textile mills.

An Edison Bipolar Dynamo, built on the late 1890's...restored and running as a Motor on the EPFH Museum...

I just uploaded the video to see it closely, testing it running, and able to see Real Dimensions...

Please note the big difference with the Manchester Machine...related to Magnetic Poles Coils Distribution on the Stator and positioning of the Rotor Armature...this Edison Bipolar, that came Four (4) Years after Manchester Dynamo was built.

So, it is very obvious to the expert eyes, that Edison was still hooked on the Horseshoe Magnetic Structure, rather than Parallel Electromagnets with same poles top and bottom and Armature-Rotor on the dead center, like the Manchester had.

Hello to All,

Here is a "Monster Generator" on its time (1880)...A Thomson 30 Kw 110VDC...Special feature is its "Spherical" Armature...a heavy machine!!

But on video it is interesting info on the running Amps on Stators versus Armature...please note the heavy, coarse, gauge of its armature wires...


Regards

Ufopolitics

Hi,

Here is someone who built one.

https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,9323.0.html (https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,9323.0.html)




feb_

Hello everyone
it seems that some rotors of these 19th century generators do not have an iron core. Does this mean that the magnetic field is placed at a 90 ° angle with the generator wires, and only the magnetic field is cut?

Quote from: RhineX on Apr 09, 2024, 11:05 AMHello everyone
it seems that some rotors of these 19th century generators do not have an iron core. Does this mean that the magnetic field is placed at a 90 ° angle with the generator wires, and only the magnetic field is cut?

Hello RhineX,

Could you show the specific one you are referring to?

So far all the ones I have read about, do have a steel core...could be a steel wire ring, like the Gramme's Dynamo...

Regards 

Ufopolitics 

Hello  Ufopolitics

R1.png
R5.png

The wires of the rotor are not placed in the iron core groove, so the magnetic field from NS will evenly pass through each wire. When the rotor rotates, the magnetic field cuts each wire. 

"The total current is generated by each wire" may be the meaning of the sentence in the patent. 

That's my two centers :P

R3.png

Quote from: RhineX on Apr 09, 2024, 10:22 PMHello  Ufopolitics

The wires of the rotor are not placed in the iron core groove, so the magnetic field from NS will evenly pass through each wire. When the rotor rotates, the magnetic field cuts each wire.

"The total current is generated by each wire" may be the meaning of the sentence in the patent.

That's my two centers :P

Hello RhineX,

Please do not let the "grooves" distract you from seen the magnetic field and core magnetic circuit.

Grooves on the rotor armature came later on, it is just a better Industrial Design to contain the wires on the rotor, as to ease the production manufacturing at the time of winding...Motors and Generators.

But, there is no need to have grooves in order for magnetic field to circulate through iron at all.


However, all of these dynamos had a steel core, whether drum, ring or discs.

Regards

Ufopolitics